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Tuesday, April 06, 2010

John 17:11?

There really is so much liturgical variety in the world. I saw these two ceremonies recently and thought that they provided a very deep insight into how two very different cultures approach the same action – the worship of God. Reading the following passage of Holy Scripture made me think a bit: “Holy Father, keep them in thy name whom thou has given me; that they may be one, as we also are.” John 17:11.?



25 comments:

Coffee Catholic said...

I lasted for 1:15 and then I had to stop watching. I kept imagining myself defecting to the Russian Orthodox church.

thetimman said...

The point the video is making, it seems, is that the ordinary form of worship in the Roman Rite of the Catholic Church is inferior. Granted. But unity with Rome would not require the schismatic churches to give up their form of the liturgy, as Eastern Catholic churches prove.

If the point is that they would be wary of a group that would allow such a form be promulgated, that is a valid point.

I pray that the West gets its liturgical house in order quickly. Clearly our beloved Holy Father has set the Church on this road; may God grant that the process goes ever onward to restoration.

Happy Easter to the Sons of the Most Holy Redeemer!

Coffee Catholic said...

"The point the video is making, it seems, is that the ordinary form of worship in the Roman Rite of the Catholic Church is inferior."

....... I'm spraining my fingers as I force myself not to take the bait. ;-)

umblepie said...

Very, very sad.

wheat4paradise said...

Does participation in distasteful liturgy necessarily exclude someone from the unity of the Catholic Church?

David

wheat4paradise said...

The liturgy in the first half of the video is beautiful, yet it is schismatic and therefore, objectively, not Catholic.

The liturgy in the second half of the video is horrible and painful to watch, yet on that basis alone can we assert that it is objectively not Catholic?

Granted, the Bugnini liturgy is an obstacle to the conversion of the Orthodox. Nevertheless, in the final analysis, schismatics will have to answer for their own schism. They won't be able to blame Bugnini.

David

umblepie said...

David, You've hit the nail on the head. The devout and mystical liturgy is that of a schismatic church, and the shallow, empty liturgy is that of the true church. What a paradox, and how depressing. But this really does emphasise the importance of the liturgy, and the dangers inherent in reducing it to almost a 'Hollywood' spectacle. I could not believe that I was watching the 'Good Friday' ceremonies - 'Mater Dolorosa - ora pro nobis'

Matthew Bellisario said...

We must realize that the Orthodox liturgies are valid, and our own Eastern Catholic liturgies are for the most part the same. Their liturgies are Catholic, despite the schism. What happened in LA is a disgrace to our Catholic faith and in as much as right worship is concerned, which is due to God, that liturgy in LA failed on every level to render that worship due to Him alone. Until these kind of shenanigans are stopped, evangelization will be tough going. I believe the Novus Ordo is on the way out. In a hundred years these monstrous liturgies will be a mere bad memory documented in the history books.

St. Jude Pray For Me said...

Dear Servus Mariæ,

in the following link Fr. Michael Azkoul tries to explain differences between Orthodoxy and Roman Catholicism.

http://www.ocf.org/OrthodoxPage/reading/ortho_cath.htm

However, it is my opinion that in modern times the Divine Liturgy has undergone tremendous changes and influences, as proved by the second half of the Video, which have weakened the Sense of the Sacred.

My Prayers are with You All
A.B.

wheat4paradise said...

Matthew, as much as I'd like to agree with you, the reality is that the Novus Ordo isn't going away. Take it from one who lives and breathes (and worships) in Novus Ordo land. The challenge before us is not how to bulldoze the Novus Ordo and replace it with the Gregorian Rite, but rather how to live as ONE with our Novus Ordo Catholic brethren.

Interestingly, the SSPX find themselves in a similar position to the Orthodox, insofar as they look at Mahoneyfest and say: "I refuse to be in communion with that!" By contrast, a Catholic who values unity with Peter as a pearl of great price will look at Mahoneyfest and say: "I don't like it, but if the Pope recognizes those people as Catholic, so do I."

Unity isn't easy.

David

wheat4paradise said...

Brian,

Although it's not much consolation, the LA travesty did not occur on Good Friday. It happened at the end of the annual Religious Education Conference last month, I believe.

Matthew,

As much as I'd like to agree with you, the reality is that the Novus Ordo isn't going away. Take it from one who lives and breathes (and worships) in Novus Ordo land. While the worst liturgical abuses, like Mahoneyfest, will hopefully fade away, the run of the mill, bland Novus Ordo experience seems to be here to stay, at least for the foreseeable future.

The challenge before us is not how to bulldoze the Novus Ordo and replace it with the Gregorian Rite, but rather how to live as ONE with our Novus Ordo brethren. This is life in the trenches. It's what our Holy Father expects of us. Unity isn't easy.

David

wheat4paradise said...

Brian,

Although it's not much consolation, the LA travesty did not occur on Good Friday. It happened at the end of the annual Religious Education Conference last month, I believe.

Matthew,

As much as I'd like to agree with you, the reality is that the Novus Ordo isn't going away. Take it from one who lives and breathes (and worships) in Novus Ordo land. While the worst liturgical abuses, like Mahoneyfest, will hopefully fade away, the run of the mill, bland Novus Ordo experience seems to be here to stay, at least for the foreseeable future.

The challenge before us is not how to bulldoze the Novus Ordo and replace it with the Gregorian Rite, but rather how to live as ONE with our Novus Ordo brethren. This is life in the trenches. It's what our Holy Father expects of us. Unity isn't easy.

David

Jerry said...

Unfortunately, most Novus Ordo Catholics gravitate immediately to the LA style ceremony, IMHO. Lively music, slick dancing, entertaining - fun - community and audience oriented. IMHO

Would that we be one - I'm afraid it's a long way off where God is the center of attention.

Jerry

pvillaescusa said...

My husband & I were born and raised in California. We enjoyed beautiful, reverential liturgies in the diocese of Los Angeles until Mahoney. Today, our son is a priest but not in California. If we had not moved away... there would be one less priest functioning in our Catholic world in America. There is a reason that our children do not want to become priests. Look at your laughable, ludicrous liturgies: dancing girls, hip-hop dancing, too many effeminate priests who espouse only a social justice gospel. Without reverential awe in the sacred liturgy, we are merely copycat protestants.

wheat4paradise said...

Sorry for the duplicate comments above. I was having problems with Blogger yesterday ... apparently my many apparent fails succeeded after all. Servus Mariae -- please feel free to delete the duplicates.

Jerry, I don't know if it is true that "most" ordinary Catholic gravitate to hip-hop liturgy such as shown in the video. That's a very extreme example.

David

Jerry said...

David,

I didn't express my thought precisely enough - what I meant is that the typical NO'er would compare the Orthodox worship and the Mohoney thing - and be attracted to the hip music, dancing etc. It's what they get at their churches most of the time. My wife and I were "forced" by scheduling problems to attend our local NO Mass recently - when the drums and banjo started banging, we walked out - I feel very confident that God understands, and I did not confess missing Mass that Sunday.

Jerry

Anonymous said...

Not to fear all!

The FSSPX has just finished her rosary crusade for the Consecration of Russia to Our Ladys Immaculate Heart by the Holy Father in union with all the worlds bishops on one specific day, per Our Ladys request to Lucia.
When this Consecration takes place, as it will presently, all of Russia will be converted to the Catholic Faith and there will be a period of peace in the world.
As Our Blessed Mother promised.
God bless and be at peace.
Hope.
Dan Hunter

Coffee Catholic said...

"Unfortunately, most Novus Ordo Catholics gravitate immediately to the LA style ceremony, IMHO. Lively music, slick dancing, entertaining - fun - community and audience oriented."

Lively music? DANCING??

... the second half of the video is a Mahoneyfest?!

Thank GOD I stopped at 1:15 !!

wheat4paradise said...

Dan,

If Mary's haste in responding to the last two Rosary Crusades is any indication, you might be right!

Let us hope.

David

Carlos Antonio Palad said...

"We must realize that the Orthodox liturgies are valid, and our own Eastern Catholic liturgies are for the most part the same..."

Unfortunately, the Eastern Catholics are also fast embracing reforms inspired by the Novus Ordo (ad populum liturgies, severely abbreviated liturgies, etc.). In the run-up to the upcoming Synod of Bishops on the Eastern Churches (October 2010), there have been calls for accelerated liturgical reform in the Eastern Catholic Churches. In the "lineamenta" for that Synod (released in January of this year) one of the questions is: "Do you think the liturgy needs to be reconsidered to some extent?"

In Russia and Serbia there are major debates among the Orthodox as some of their theologians, influenced by the Orthodox living in the USA and Western Europe, are also clamoring for liturgical reform -- although the reforms they want are mild by Catholic standards.

I've documented a bit of all these in Rorate Caeli.

Carlos

PS: Alongside NLM, Patriarchia is one of my chief sources of "liturgical eye candy".

cssml said...

I probably would've be an Orthodox if Our Lord hadn't revealed to me His Most Holy Sacrifice through the glorious Tridentine Mass.

Olha said...

I think that what "the timman" said is a little off. It is not because the Orthodox fear losing their liturgical sanctity that there is no union with Rome; it is essentially because everything that the Catholic Church has done throughout the past century has been to acquiesce to the standards and immorality of the world that we live in. This goes well beyond liturgical services; it is about reverence, adhering to the Word of God and being Christ-like in every way possible. Instead of reverence and respect for the sacred, as is observed with the Moscow Patriarchate, the Christian West has introduced all new ways of trying to vivify worship, such as dancing deacons and clap-along songs. Has this helped the Catholic faith in terms of reeling in interested members? Orthodoxy is what it is; it is not interested in promoting itself, nor does it change doctrine or beliefs in order to make people feel "happy" or "comfortable." It has remained unchanged for 2,000 years, and with the grace of God, will continue to do so for another 2,000 and beyond. Christ is Risen!

Anonymous said...

Having just returned as a lay participant in the LMS training week for priests wishing to learn the EF of Holy Mass I can assure you that growing numbers of priests (many of them young) wish to get away from the kind of rubbish claimed to be the worship o
f God in LA. We have much to learn from our Orthodox bretheren (priests & laity) about the sacred celebration of our liturgy. Thank God that LA will soon be rid of it's self centred archbishop & please God the Church will be saved from liberals who want to protestantise the Holy Mass. It will be saved when the usus antiquor is returned in it's glory
David O'Neill (UK)

Ex Traditio said...

The Eastern Orthodoxy, through its liturgy, seeks to profess their beliefs/doctrines. It is a reflection of their belief/s. So if they were to stick to their beliefs, they have to stick to their liturgy. Unfortunately, a lot of our Catholic beliefs have been clouded, and this has been mostly delivered to the people through strange and unusual liturgy, which in continuing, reaffirms these teachings.

Anonymous said...

The imagines in this video - explain why this life long Roman Catholic formally changed rite to become a Melkite.

My children - now grown adults - have known and will worship God. I doubt they will ever dance to liturgical music

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